Javier...io ho questo articolo: c'è una descrizione di Lachnellula subtilissima....

Dear Javier

yes, I agree. The photo of asci in iodine, you pretreated with KOH. But in Luigol directly you should get a distinct though a bit dirty red-brown reactrion.

Zotto

Gracias Alesio. 
Se me olvido poner la medida de las esporas 6- 8 (10) x 2-3 y decir que todas las medidas se hicieron con agua. Aunque la medida de las ascas de mi recolección son algo mas grandes, por lo demás parece que encaja bastante bien con la descripción que envias.


Saludos
Javier


Thank you Alesio.
It(He,She) forgets to put on the measure of the spores 6-8 (10 x 2-3 and to say that all the measures were done by water. Though the measure of the ascas of my compilation they are some kind of big mas, for the rest it seems that enough good fits with the description that envias.

Regards
Javier

Gracias Zotto.


Se han cruzado los mensajes, mirare de nuevo como es la reacción con Lugol, aunque en una preparación anterior no consegui el resultado que me indica.


Saludos
Javier     

Thank you Zotto.

The messages have crossed, I will look since(as,like) it is the reaction with Lugol though in a previous preparation not consegui the result that indicates me.

Regards
Javier

Did you measure the asci in water? In KOH they are surely smaller

Zotto

Hola Javier
Subo una foto de la reacción en IKI de los ascos de Lachnellula subtilissima. Es discreta pero se aprecia.

I post a picture showing the reaction of the asci of Lachnellula subtilissima when you add IKI. It´s a faint reaction but it can be seen.

Zotto: In your key I read 2-3 RR/Rb for L. subtilissima, does it mean you cand find collections with RR reaction and also collections with Rb reaction?

Thanks y un saludo,
Raúl

Yes, I obviously saw this variation between collections. One must be cautios with the transient blue reaction when adding Lugol to the water mount, so one can easily overlook it. But from my data I assume I was sure to have seen pure RR in subtilissima.

Zotto

Gracias Zotto,  yo estoy empezando a estudiar los Discomycetes , tengo una duda, la medida de las ascas en agua deberia ser mas largas que la que yo he enviado?

Gracias Raúl, por la imagen  pensaba que seria algo mas evidente, a ver cuando tengo un momento y puedo hacer alguna preparación a ver si consigo observarlo 


Saludos
Javier

Thank you Zotto, I am starting studying the Discomycetes, have a doubt, the measure of the ascas in water deberia be mas long that the one that I have sent?

Thank you Raúl, for the image was thinking that serious a little evident mas, to seeing when I have a moment and can do some preparation to seeing if I manage to observe it


Regards
Javier

Living asci are always larger than dead asci. Your asci in ?Congo Red are alive while those in KOH+MLZ are dead. So I assume you measured the living asci, while in the literature you will mostly find data from dead elements, therefore smaller..

Zotto

Thanks for the explanation Zotto. In my collection I think it was pure red, but I´m not sure because when I checked it I took no video of IKI entrance. Nowadays, in nearly all Helotiales, I check it. I follow IKI entrance with a video of the asci tips. So then, when you lapse the video, you can check if it changes from blue to red.
Raúl

But the feature is also recognizable without a camera :-) But with a video you have a firm proof for those who doubt it.

If you have a gradient in the preparation and enough asci you can photograph blue and red rings in one pic.
Zotto

Yes, but problem is time ;-) I don´t have very much time to anotate the info while taking pics, so there I store the videos and pics to remind me it when I need them. Of course, another problem is info storage.

Sometimes I also take videos of KOH entrance after IKI. I attach one of Arachnopeziza aurelia, RB in this case, but a RR reaction would fade first to blue and then colourless in the same way?

Raúl

I think that looking videos is more time-consuming :-/

I see only blue on your video, cannot see KOH-entrance. Why you say RB?

When adding KOH to an RR-reaction the reaction disappears without blue, I predict.

Zotto

Yes, it is time-consuming.

I reduced too much the video in the previous upload, here a bit longer.

Thanks for the answer.

Raúl

Gracias Zotto y Raúl.

Muy interesantes y didacticos vuestros comentarios, por mi parte yo no consigo ver en ninguna preparación el rojo en las ascas con Lugol. Adjunto fotos de esporas, donde creo que se ve esporas germinadas y conidios. No se si esto puede aclarar algo para determinar la especie, siento no poder aportar mas pero yo soy bastante novato.


Saludos
Javier

Very interesting and didactic your comments, for my part I do not manage to see in any preparation the red one in the ascas with Lugol. I attach photos of spores, where I believe that one sees germinated spores and conidios. Not if this can clarify something to determine the species(kind), I am sorry not to be able to reach mas but I am raw enough.

Regards
Javier

Hola Javier

Pues las fotos que mandas son muy buenas por lo que deberías apreciarlo con el microscopio que usas. Sólo se me ocurre que el IKI que utilizas sea fuerte. Ocurre a veces que es difícil de apreciar porque el contraste del rojo con el rojo-marrón-amarillo del IKI es muy limitado y además llega un momento en el que el IKI gana a la reacción ocultándola. Otra posibilidad es que tu IKI sea flojo, pero por lo menos deberías haber visto azul si es del tipo RB. Y si es una reacción RR, el rojo aparecería con una concentración de iodo por encima de 0,03-0,2 % (http://www.gbif-mycology.de/HostedSites/Baral/IodineReaction.htm). Te sugiero disgregar la preparación hasta encontrar un asco solitario sin nada por debajo, entonces debería ser más fácil distinguir entre el color del IKI y la reacción hemiamiloide.

But the pictures you send are very good so you should see it with the microscope you use. I only wonder that your IKI is strong. Sometimes it is difficult to appreciate because the contrast between red and reddish-brown-yellow of IKI is very limited and also you get to a moment where the IKI wins overstaining all and hidding the reaction. Another posibility is that your IKI is weak, but at least you should have seen blue if it is RB type. And if it is a RR reaction the red will appear over 0,03-0,2 % iodine concentration (http://www.gbif-mycology.de/HostedSites/Baral/IodineReaction.htm). I suggest to disgregate the preparation till you find an ascus without anything bellow, then should be easier to distinguish between IKI colour and the hemiamyloid reaction.

Saludos,
Raúl

Gracias Raúl, ya he probado de todas las maneras, también he mirado ascas solas y no hay manera, es posible que el IkI no este en buenas condiciones, voy a comprarlo de nuevo, hay alguna concentración mas adecuada que otra?, A pesar de no haber observado la reacción hemiamiloide se podria decir que se trata de Lachnellula subtilissima.


Gracias y saludos

Javier  

Thank you Raúl, already I have tried all the ways, also I have looked ascas alone and there is no way, it is possible that the not this IkI in good conditions, I am going to buy again, there is some concentration mas suitable that different?, In spite of not having observed the reaction hemiamiloide podria to say that it is a question of Lachnellula subtilissima.

Graces(Thanks) and regards

Javier

Javier, since you saw a strong blue reactio  after KOH, there must be a red distinct reaction without kOH. Did you ever see the red reaction of apical rings? One possibility is that your Lugol is in fact Melzer, or contains high amounts of other colourless ingredients such as lactic acid etc. They all suppress the red. The solution must be bright red-brown, may not have a strange smell, and must behave like water, not viscous.

Zotto

Hola Zotto, no he conseguido ver el rojo en ninguna de las preparaciones, seguro que el IKI esta en mal estado, cuando lo reponga volvere a intentarlo.


Muchas gracias

Javier  
 
Hello Zotto, I have not managed to see the red one in any of the preparations, insurance that the IKI this one in poor condition, when it(he,she) re-sets it volvere to try(mean) it.

Thank you very much

Javier
 

  

Hola de nuevo,
finalmente he conseguido la reacción hemiamiloide con IkI, el tipo de reacciónque veo es RR.

Ya se puede decir
que es Lachnellula subtilissima?

Saludos

Javier

Hello again,
finally I have obtained the reaction hemiamiloide with IkI, the type of
reaction that I see is RR.

Already is it possible to say that it is Lachnellula subtilissima?

Regards

Javier

Nice hemiamyloid reaction!
Yes, for me L. subtilissima. 
Raúl

this is the description of LACHNELLULA SUBTILISSIMA in IMI Descriptions of Fungi and Bacteria No. 1649

Gracias Raúl , como L subtilissima la archivo.
Gracias Alessio por el documento.


Saludos
Javier