Ivana is just sending you rapidly made photos (jpg) but will also make a proper scan for you in the evening.

cheers,
Neven  

Hi Irina,

its here..

Regards

Martin

Thank you very much, Neven and Martin

Neven, I suppose you remember that Neottiella speciemen:). And I collected one more from the same area, now I re-examine them.

With best wishes,

Irina

Hi Irina,

I made a collection of N.a. in northern Italy last year. Would be nice to compare...

Regards

Martin

Hi friends!

I think that the current name has to be Neottiella albocincta!
N. atrichi and N. catharinaea should be synonymic.

Look also at the website of Jan Eckstein:
http://www.octospora.de/Nalbocincta.htm?

I found this species in 2011 on Atrichum undulatum.
Here you can have a little impression:

Hi Norbert,
thank you for pointing on the synonymy! I have doubts on the current concept. Please give me some time to work in again in that subject.
By the way, would you call the ornament of the spores of your collection warty or reticulate?

Best regards

Martin

Hello Martin,

You wrote:
"By the way, would you call the ornament of the spores of your collection warty or reticulate??"

On my opinion the ornament is more reticulate than warty.
But it's not a complete reticulum, as you can see at the picture.

Best regards

Norbert

Adio Irina,

For your information, I have found N. atrichi (albocincta) in CWU herbarium collections.
This is duplicate from CWU 4351, given by Alex Akulov.
Perhaps, you remember it.
I attach for you photos of collecting data, perhaps yours was collected in another area of Ukraine.

Sincerely,
Beñat

Dear all,

meanwhile I managed to sort my notes to this topic:
To explain my trouble with a synonymy of Neottiella atrichi and N. albocincta I have to go back to the protologue of Peziza albo-cincta Berk. & M.A. Curtis (1874). Spores are described there as being "elliptic echinulate". Cooke 1876 gives a plate with figures of specimens he had recieved from Berkeley showing undoubtedly warty spores.

1894 comes Massee with his paper "Peziza rutilans, Fr., and Peziza polytrichi, Schum." (Grevillea 22: 107-111). P. albo-cincta he takes in synonymy with P. polytrichi, stating "type examined" for albo-cincta. His drawing of P. polytrichi shows clearly echinulate spores.

There are other descriptions as well, as Starbaeck 1898, describing the warty ornament.

It is only Rifai 1968 who comes up on a sudden with reticulate spores for his Leucoscypha albo-cincta. He claims his drawing being made "from type" as well.

Maybe some of you can help to solve this riddle..

Best regards,

Martin

Adio Martin,

Be careful with plates from Cooke.
I suppose he doesn't have a sufficient material to distinguish warts or reticulum.
Please see the following example :
Scutellinia margaritacea, cooke's plate (with warts) and spores from typus

Around N. atrichi or albocincta, I don't know, I've just follow the synonymy...
Cordially,

Beñat

Hi Beñat,

I would fully agree if we had Cooke's description and drawing only. But Massee's paper is focused especially on distiguishing the spore ornamentation.
And also Moser (1963) describes it as "fein warzig" and gives a corresponding sketch.

Regards

Martin

Bonjour tous
as a fellow Yorkshireman I have much regard for George Massee; however his work does occasionally need to be approached with caution.
'Extroverted and impetuous, Massee was a somewhat difficult man . . . . . John Ramsbottom, who knew him well, was of the opinion that "if he had any capacity whatever for taking pains he would have been a genius".'
G.C. Ainsworth in Mycologist 6 (1) p.13.

"taking pains" is a little difficult to translate exactly, near equivalents would be

méticuleux - French
sorgfältig - German

amitiés
Chris

Dear all,

I would only like to add that careful exsiccata revision of the type is always best way to clear up such taxonomic concept wherever possible especially in groups where exsiccate is sufficiently taxonomically informative and especially if very old taxa/epithets are in question.

Cheers,
Neven

Absolutelly, Neven!
It is unfortunate that Rifai did not comment the obervations on spore ornamentation of his predecessors who studied the type.

@Chris: thanks for this "enlightenment".

Cheers

Martin

Dear Benat you have the book of the "Cooke" digital?

Peter

Hi Peter,

it is a very large Document (c. 30MB). I will send it to you.

Regards

Martin

Oh yes! Martin, can you please send it also to my address? I have only macrophotos of some plates/species from the Cook's mono.

Concerning Rifai's case: there is plenty of such mistakes and/or imperfections not only in very old literature and are often hard to be discovered. These cause serious problems in a processes of taxa/epthet clarifications...

Neven

Vielen Dank Martin.


Leider aber von Goggle Books, die haben einfach keine Ahnung Bücher zu scannen.



Gruß Peter

Many thanks Martin!

Best wishes,
Neven