disc on Cryptomeria needles - Forum ASCOFrance

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disc on Cryptomeria needles

Margot en Geert Vullings, 14-01-2025 10:11

On a dead branch of Cryptomeria that has been lying on the ground in the garden for a year, we found these sessile orange-brown discs on the needles, when young they look dark grey.

Hairs:
Smooth, no spines or warts, filled with VB/LB?
No change visible in KOH + Melzers or CB.

Spores:
Ellipsoid, somewhat more pointed towards the poles and small guttules at the poles, with 1 sept.
Measured in water: (9.8) 10.1 - 11.7 (12) × (3.1) 3.2 - 3.6 (3.9) µm; Qe = 3.3

Asci:
Measured in water: 64.2 - 72.4 × 5.5 - 7 µm; Qe = 11.5
IKI + and croziers +

Paraphyses:
Cylindric, sometimes with a sept and somewhat constricted there, filled with VB's/LB?

Does anyone have an idea what this could be?
Many thanks in advance.

Kind regards,
Margot&Geert

Hans-Otto Baral, 15-01-2025 20:33

Re : disc on Cryptomeria needles

Your photo of paraphyses (beforelast) shows damaged terminal cells, they are still turgescent and therefore misleading. In your 9th pic I obscurely see that they contain VBs as you showed them in the living hairs (pic 4), while on pic 10 the terminal cells are dead while the lower cells are alive.

The apical ring look almost sclerotiniaceous. My guess is that this is a Cenangiaceae, but I do not know which.

Did you actually use MLZ or was it IKI? It looks more like IKI (without chloral hydrate).

I have placed your fungus in my folder "indet. Prunus, Hedera, Castanea, Cryptomeria" which I had to enlarge by this conifer. I think there are some similarities, but am not sure if all are the same.

But I also see a strong similarity with the Salix folder within Dibeloniella. Mollisia ramealis could be related. Do I moved the above folder into Dibeloniella.

Margot en Geert Vullings, 15-01-2025 22:10

Re : disc on Cryptomeria needles

Thank you very much for your answer.
The photo with the J+ ascus is definitely in Melzers, if necessary we will repeat this in IKI.

We saw the photos in your Dibeloniella folder, there is a resemblance, but the J+ reaction is a bit different?

Kind regards,
Margot&Geert

Hans-Otto Baral, 15-01-2025 22:30

Re : disc on Cryptomeria needles

No you must not repeat. But I recommend to take care of your Melzer. I usually think that I can see the difference. In MLZ you cannot see the LBs inside the spores, while on your photo they are well visible. It can be that MLZ gives for a short time (some seconds or so) the same result as IKI (Lugol) because the iodine moves faster than chloral hydrate when MLZ is applied to the edge of a water preparation. This way some people determine the hemiamyloid (red) reaction with Lugol (I know that the American professor J.C. Krug did it this way.

Margot en Geert Vullings, 16-01-2025 10:33

Re : disc on Cryptomeria needles

The first disk I looked at with IKI, but many asci were dead, it was too old, we did see the asci J+ reaction, but the picture was sharp enough.
We then looked at a younger disk in Melzers, I always make a preparation in water first, to see if it is good enough and then I indeed add a drop Melzers to the edge of the glass and suck it under, that is the photo you see here.

Hans-Otto Baral, 16-01-2025 10:46

Re : disc on Cryptomeria needles

So I conclude that the chloral hydrate was not concentrated enough to mask the oil drops.

Margot en Geert Vullings, 16-01-2025 13:56

Re : disc on Cryptomeria needles

Amazing what information you get from photos.

Now we understand the question whether it was Melzers.

We assume that first a preparation in water is no problem for IKI, but that Melzers is better not added to water or mention this?

Kind regards,

Margot&Geert

Lothar Krieglsteiner, 16-01-2025 14:40

Re : disc on Cryptomeria needles

Hello Margot,
Melzer should better not used in discomycetes at all, for it is not necessary and causes cell death because of the chloral hydrate.
You should use IKI (lugol) or the higher concentrated "Barals solution" because it contains no toxic agents and lets the cells live.
Furthermore, hemiamloid reactions can only be examined in longer term with IKI, not with Melzers.
Yours, Lothar

Margot en Geert Vullings, 16-01-2025 16:34

Re : disc on Cryptomeria needles

Thanks Lothar, we know that, normally we use for ascomycetes the first time IKI, only a second time sometimes in Melzers or Lugol.

Hans-Otto Baral, 16-01-2025 16:57

Re : disc on Cryptomeria needles

To clarify: IKI is not necessarily high-concentrated, it includes Lugol, which has a defined concentration around 0.25% iodine, or the higher concentration that I use and which lies around 1% (but 0.5% is also already quite good, considering that the iodine easily escapes from small bottles.

To add MLZ to water isn't that bad because this way you can also observe the red hemiamyloid reaction, though only for a very short time. So if you don't have IKI at hand, this would be an option. But I must say I have little practical experience with MLZ.

But for dextrinoid reactions of cell walls, e.g. in Hyaloscypha, MLZ is recommended.

Margot en Geert Vullings, 17-01-2025 18:43

Re : disc on Cryptomeria needles

Thank you very much Hans-Otto

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