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Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
Martin Bemmann,
26-06-2012 23:50
Dear all,I rarely find Peziza in my acid enviroment on sandstone. This is one of yesterday growing in moss on a WW-I graveyard. (sorry for the flood of pictures...)
Asci are IKI+, paraphyses simple, spores feature a rough warty ornament with a polar emphasis stronger staining in CB, size (18.4)19.6-21.4x(11)11.8-13.6 µm (measurements incl. ornament).
I thought on P. depressa, but this polar protuberances reminded me on P. lividula as well. For the latter the shape of the spores are not fusiform enough.
Any hints of yours?
Best regards,
Martin
Chris Yeates,
27-06-2012 01:51
Re : Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
I can only think of P. limnaea; but I assume you have rejected that . . .
Chris
Chris
René Dougoud,
27-06-2012 09:01
Re : Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
Cher collègue,
Il est possible qu'il s'agisse de Peziza limnaea Gest. Maas. Toutefois les apothécies sont ici très pâles. Par ailleurs, il est très difficile, d'après les photos, de pouvoir apprécier l'ornementation sporale. Chez P. limnaea elle est formée de crêtes allongées, étirées, qui ne s'observent bien qu'avec le plus fort grossissement et dans le bleu coton lactique (Voir dessins en annexe).
L'hypothèse, pour P. lividula, peut effectivement être rejetée. Les ascospores sont en effet plus allongées et de formes irrégulières.
Amicalement
René
Raúl Tena Lahoz,
27-06-2012 09:21
Re : Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
Hi Martin
Why not Peziza succosa? Asci seem to have simple septa.
Cheers,
Raúl
Why not Peziza succosa? Asci seem to have simple septa.
Cheers,
Raúl
Björn Wergen,
27-06-2012 09:57
Re : Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
Hi Martin,
I think P. succosa fits very well. P. limnaea is also macroscopically another species.
regards,
björn
I think P. succosa fits very well. P. limnaea is also macroscopically another species.
regards,
björn
Martin Bemmann,
27-06-2012 20:53
Re : Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
Thank you all for the replies!
I excluded succosa because I had this species before with very much paler ascomata and ouzing a yellow latex when hurt in the hymenium. One of the first things I did on the spot was to check this. There was no liquid, milk, latex or whatsoever.
The site is shady with mossy ground but not wet as to be expected for limnea.
I will try to make some new shots of the spores this evening showing better the ornament.
Best regards,
Martin
I excluded succosa because I had this species before with very much paler ascomata and ouzing a yellow latex when hurt in the hymenium. One of the first things I did on the spot was to check this. There was no liquid, milk, latex or whatsoever.
The site is shady with mossy ground but not wet as to be expected for limnea.
I will try to make some new shots of the spores this evening showing better the ornament.
Best regards,
Martin
Daniel Ghyselinck,
27-06-2012 22:37
Re : Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
Hi Martin,
You should also consider P. michelii, which has similar spores with partly coalescent warts, often more dense at the pole. It normally has a yellow milk, but it is quite often very weak and difficult to see, and if the apothecia is slightly dry, it disappears completly.
According to Hohmeyer, P. depressa has only one guttule, and P. lividula has more fusiform spores with isolated warts.
Best regards,
Daniel
You should also consider P. michelii, which has similar spores with partly coalescent warts, often more dense at the pole. It normally has a yellow milk, but it is quite often very weak and difficult to see, and if the apothecia is slightly dry, it disappears completly.
According to Hohmeyer, P. depressa has only one guttule, and P. lividula has more fusiform spores with isolated warts.
Best regards,
Daniel
Raúl Tena Lahoz,
27-06-2012 22:54
Re : Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
It would be useful to check the croziers. Peziza michelii and limnaea have croziers while succosa hasn´t.
Raúl
Raúl
Martin Bemmann,
29-06-2012 23:05
Re : Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
Hi again,
I checked the asci. All those floating free have a straight basal septum. I attach a picture of the ascusbases in situ that shows the same.
I attach also a new picture of spores in CB. The warts are forming ridges concentrating to clods at the poles.
I am still lost with the Hohmeyer key (who does not deal with croziers...).
One idea was Donadini's P. muscicola, but I think these ascomata are too pale and according to his description the ornament should form at least an uncomplete reticulum.
Grateful for further ideas,
Martin
I checked the asci. All those floating free have a straight basal septum. I attach a picture of the ascusbases in situ that shows the same.
I attach also a new picture of spores in CB. The warts are forming ridges concentrating to clods at the poles.
I am still lost with the Hohmeyer key (who does not deal with croziers...).
One idea was Donadini's P. muscicola, but I think these ascomata are too pale and according to his description the ornament should form at least an uncomplete reticulum.
Grateful for further ideas,
Martin
Raúl Tena Lahoz,
30-06-2012 16:38
Re : Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
Hi Martin
Thanks for taking some more pics. Macro, asci and spores look to me very like as Peziza succosa, maybe no latex because the age of the apos or because they were a bit dry?
P. michelii, limnaea, lividula and musciola have croziers, so I would discard those.
Cheers,
Raúl
Thanks for taking some more pics. Macro, asci and spores look to me very like as Peziza succosa, maybe no latex because the age of the apos or because they were a bit dry?
P. michelii, limnaea, lividula and musciola have croziers, so I would discard those.
Cheers,
Raúl
Martin Bemmann,
01-07-2012 00:10
Re : Peziza depressa.... lividula.... or what????
Hi Raúl,
as I said initially a Peziza is a rare find for me and therefore I have few experience.
I found P. succosa before, very much paler and with a distinctly yellowing milk on tissue paper. But you may be right that these apos from my recent find are too mature to show this feature.
It seems to me that Peziza is not a Genus successfully handled with keys but with experience foremost ;-)
Cheers
Martin
as I said initially a Peziza is a rare find for me and therefore I have few experience.
I found P. succosa before, very much paler and with a distinctly yellowing milk on tissue paper. But you may be right that these apos from my recent find are too mature to show this feature.
It seems to me that Peziza is not a Genus successfully handled with keys but with experience foremost ;-)
Cheers
Martin