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Orbilia cejpii
Khomenko Igor, 16-12-2020 05:25
Khomenko IgorHi,

Looking for confirmation from Zotto if this is O. cejpii or something else.
Adam Polhorský helped me to id it, but he is not sure because of the margin.


https://inaturalist.org/observations/66551635


Thanks.

Hans-Otto Baral, 16-12-2020 08:40
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Orbilia cejpii
Hi Igor

dfifficult group! I agree with O. cejpii, but paraphyses are only hardly inflated and, as you say, apothecial margin is very unusual. Does your last photo show the margin? So there are no glassy processes?

Helpful would be the conidia.

O. cejpii is heterogeneous and apparently specific to certain trees. You have no idea about the host? The bark looks characteristic, perhaps Betula?

Zotto
Khomenko Igor, 17-12-2020 03:58
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
I re-examined the sample and I found out that I actually had two similar-looking orbilia species next to each other. One with a margin that I've photographed and the other without on which I've done microscopy. I replaced those macro pictures and there is no margin now (https://inaturalist.ca/observations/66551635).
Paraphyses are still only slightly inflated. I believed the last photo was showing the margin and I uploaded a few more. There is something glassy on the margin, now it is the last picture. Unfortunately, I didn't observe conidia.
When I picked the bark from the ground I thought that it came from Populus, but I didn't see the tree, and now looking at the pictures with all those leaves it could be from Betula.


The one with the margin has very different microscopy and for now, I don't know what it is. (https://inaturalist.ca/observations/66676377).

Thanks

Hans-Otto Baral, 17-12-2020 10:25
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Orbilia cejpii
yeah, this makes more sense!

So this seems to be a member of series Regales. The exudate caps on the paraphyses are typical of that series, as are the glassy processes, which appear to be very short, however.

O. regalis is from New Jersey on Malus bark but has basally much more pointed spores (in dead state) and spathulate to mammiform paraphyses. O. aradi has broader spores and is distinctly yellow (rarely whitish), with a bright yellow margin in section due to yellow LBs, also the margin looks more rough-crenulate than dentate and the species it is confined to Fagus.

Even a member of series Neodactylella is similar, O. pseudeuphorbiae, but is macroscopically quite different and only known from Tenerife on Euphorbia.

I fear this is a candidate for sequening, perhaps something new.

Zotto
Khomenko Igor, 18-12-2020 04:06
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
Thank you, Zotto.
I don't do sequencing, but if someone interested I could mail it.
Guy Marson, 18-12-2020 15:19
Re : Orbilia cejpii
Hello Igor, 
Very interesting, I'm ready to sequence this species.
Please send a few apos that were dried immediately after collection but are still on the substrate to my address:


Guy Marson
45 b, rue de Bettembourg
L-5810 Hesperange 
Luxembourg
 
BTW: Our sequencer will not be operational again until mid-January 2021.


Best regards,


Guy

Khomenko Igor, 26-12-2020 17:00
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
Hello Guy,
I'm going to mail it right after the holidays, to avoid delays.
In meanwhile I picked up a few more specimens just during this month of December 2020 from hikes around Ottawa, ON, Canada.
I'm an amateur, so I'm not really sure about my identifications. It would be nice to get confirmations or ids. Thanks.

#677D Orbilia trapeziformis-on Acer bark; https://inaturalist.ca/observations/66701857


#698 O. vinosa -likely on decorticated Betula log;
https://inaturalist.ca/observations/66893816


#696C Orbilia sp. -on Ulmus bark;
https://inaturalist.ca/observations/66973128


#699 O. subsphaerospora - on Acer bark;
https://inaturalist.ca/observations/66941554


#699B O. ovalis - on Acer bark;
https://inaturalist.ca/observations/66943810


#699C Hyalorbilia subfusispora -on Acer bark;
https://inaturalist.ca/observations/66945623


#701 O. caudata -unknown hardwood stick;
https://inaturalist.ca/observations/67054483

Hans-Otto Baral, 26-12-2020 17:44
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Orbilia cejpii
Hi Igor

woww, not easy to say for all.

677D - spores like O. gambelii but no crystalloid SCBs. Unvlear, surely not trapeziformis.

698: Spores and SBs too short for O. vinosa. Perhaps an undescribed species known from NE of N-America. Compare Plate 259: 5

696C: Reminds us of O. aurantiorubra but spores very short. The short-spored form that we treat avoids Ulmus but grows on Fabaceae.

699A: Right, first record of O. subsphaerospora in America.

699B: This is O. eucalypti.

699C: right! Very typical. The only previous record from America was not well studied.

701: we agree with caudatus! A very rare species. This would be worth to sequence. The host looks like Acer, isn't it?

Zotto
Khomenko Igor, 28-12-2020 03:18
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
Zotto, Thank you

#701-O. caudata, I'm going to send the specimen to Guy Marson for sequence;
I don't think it was on Acer. Yesterday I took a walk and another look and  I'm thinking it was from a dead Ulmus that had a big broken branch just hanging over that spot. Many trees are dead and all with the same bark, some of them have O. pilifera.  I found on two of them that day. There are also Populus trees around that spot but no Acer.
.
#698 ?O.vinosa-It does look very similar to O. cf. vinosa. H.B.5518 from USA on Pinus strobus bark, but I'm sure it wasn't Pinus and it is very likely was a decorticated log of Betula. I saved a specimen if you want it for study. I always can include it with the other two.


#696C O. aurantiorubra- I've seen O.aurantiorubra last December and it had longer spores and more inflated paraphyses apexes. This looked a bit different. I'm pretty sure that it was on Ulmus, it was next to O. pilifera. I took another look today, and recheck spores. I found one very long 14.5x1.7um, the rest were below 11um. I also found conidia that fit O.aurantiorubra. I uploaded the pictures (the last pictures). https://inaturalist.ca/observations/66973128


Over a month earlier I also observed these three species, maybe you want to add them to your records:


#652 Orbilia ficicola
https://inaturalist.ca/observations/64129220


#606 Orbilia xanthoguttulata
https://inaturalist.ca/observations/62852705

#620B Hyalorbilia erythrostigma
https://inaturalist.ca/observations/63605196


Thanks again,
Igor

Hans-Otto Baral, 28-12-2020 10:52
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Orbilia cejpii
What else do you think has such opposite branching? Did you look at the wood anatomy? Populus and Ulmus I suppose do not have such oppsite branches, Ulmus you can easily exclude in case the wood is not distincty ring-pored.

This cf. vinosa would surely be interesting for sequencing, yes, we have one sequence by Luis Quijada.

O, aurantiorubra: seems to be an aberrant spore. Well, the group is not homogeneous, who knows what this was. Perhaps you should make further collections somewhere for comparison.

ficicola: yes! Looks like Ulmus, please have a look for the ring-pored wood anc characteristic late-year pores in a cross break.

The other two are also o.k. For xanthoguttulata I wonder where it falls in a phylotree. We have one American sequence from Georgia which distinctly deviates from European ones.

Is the observation date the same as the collection date in all these samples? The latter I could not find.
Khomenko Igor, 28-12-2020 22:56
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
#701-O. caudata
Could the stick be from Fraxinus? On that stick, I found what could be Hypoxylon fraxinophilum - (Ash Woodwart - https://inaturalist.ca/observations/67144897). I also did a section of the stick. I'm not sure if this helps. https://inaturalist.ca/photos/108525588


#698-O. cf. vinosa
I will ship this specimen too.


#652 -O.ficicola
I don't have a sample of wood, but I can get it and I will let you know if it is Ulmus  or not


#606 Orbilia xanthoguttulata
I have a specimen. Do you want it?


In my case yes, the collection and the observation dates are the same. There are only exceptions for fungi on dung that I incubate, but I always mention it. At first, I submit pictures that I take on-site with my phone so they have GPS coordinates and the right time, even if I discover a fungus a few days later. I keep all specimens in a fridge before I study them, so I don't get new growth.


Best regards,
Igor

Hans-Otto Baral, 29-12-2020 08:29
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Orbilia cejpii
This is quite good. Did you take a fine saw or a knife? With a saw you destroy the fine details (pores). Perhaps you can try with a razor blade a small area to get it cleaner. The region between the large pores is important (which is formed during summer). You can also make a small section for transmission light (mic).

It strongly looks like Fraxinus. Quercus/Castanea is excluded, Ulmus I think also, and Robinia is the last that are among the typical trees with such ring-pored wood.

But I see you saw only Ulmus and Populus. So it should be checked by the above method whether it could be Ulmus. Your macro shows 3 different branches - could it be that they belong to 3 different genera?

The O. xanthoguttulata could also go to Guy. We should try to tell him that he must only do ITS.
Khomenko Igor, 30-12-2020 03:01
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
I've tried a knife and I've tried to sand with a Dremel and it wasn't working.
After your advice, I retried with just a razor.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/d6cW9KsRECsGzfZb6
It still wasn't thin enough for transmission light. I will need more practice.
Today, I went for a walk to get a stick from that tree with O. ficicola. It will be interesting to compare that wood with this and I found another Orbilia on a broken Acer twig in -10C. It will be my job for tomorrow.

I don't know the trees well enough. I thought that all dead trees in that small area were Ulmus, because I found O. pilifera, but it could be some are Fraxinus and some Ulmus. I know there is a young Fraxinus tree about few hundreds of meters north. I was looking for Hymenoscyphus on Fraxinus petioles this summer, but these are much older trees about 2 feet in diameter.
The branches could be from different trees, but I put an arrow to mark the right branch on the pictures.


Regards,
Igor

Hans-Otto Baral, 30-12-2020 07:49
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Orbilia cejpii
O.k., so the branch with opposite branching, and you showed this was ring-pored.

As for the sections, I can see in the one under the dark field mic in the lower middle, somewhat left, two small pore in the late wood region, so this is very typical of Faxinus.
  • message #66753
Khomenko Igor, 31-12-2020 00:41
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
Thanks for explaining to me. Now I know it was Fraxinus.

I attached a picture of wood from #652 - O.ficicola. It has the same kind of small pores, but many. This branch was older, but it looks very similar. Does it mean that this is also Fraxinus?

  • message #66776
Hans-Otto Baral, 31-12-2020 08:30
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Orbilia cejpii
Yes, this is certainly not Ulmus or Quercus
Khomenko Igor, 06-01-2021 04:16
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
I mailed the specimens on Monday with a tracking number, so it shouldn't get lost.
I found another that looks exactly like #698 (O. cf. vinosa), but this time I know the host was Populus.
#713 - O. cf. vinosa - https://inaturalist.ca/observations/67599062

I also found ?O. clavuliformis on a broken Acer branch.
#707 - https://inaturalist.ca/observations/67273521


I wanted to ask about my observation from Nov 2019. I couldn't id it. I kept a large specimen and I reexamined it and added a few more pictures. It was on the bark (Ulmus or Fraxinus), bright orange with a smooth margin, without glassy processes. I also found a lot of conidia on it this time. It would be nice to put a name on it.
#496 - https://inaturalist.ca/observations/35958367


Regards,


Igor

Hans-Otto Baral, 06-01-2021 09:20
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Orbilia cejpii
o.k. for vinosa. Free spores of clavuliformis lacking, is difficult, looks like clavuliformis. You say Acer, was it opposite-branching? radial rays must be composed of several rows (in tangential section).

From Nov.: Reminds me of O. caudata but the paraphyses! And the hyaline C-shaped conidia should be the anamorph. For O. caudata we have Trinacrium. Could you clarify the wood with a cross section?

I propose to use a new thread for the next collections, because nobody will be informed about such new items but me.

Zotto
Khomenko Igor, 07-01-2021 07:51
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
Thank you Zotto,

#707 O. clavuliformis on Acer branch. It is with opposite-branching.
I made a tangential section picture, but it looks too complicated for me.
https://inaturalist.ca/photos/109428064?size=large


#496 from Nov 2019
I've never made a connection that this could also be O. caudata. There were some things that didn't fit well and paraphysis shape was one of them.
I've never seen where it came from. I found a piece of bark on the ground covered with Orbilia. There were dead trees all around killed by beetles. I searched that area last fall and found only O. pilifera. It could be Ulmus or Fraxinus, but I can't check. I have only bark, but it is still a good specimen with many large cups and with spores still alive. It is actually a better sample than #701 O. caudata that I mailed.

Igor

Hans-Otto Baral, 07-01-2021 09:49
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Orbilia cejpii
No, this section is good! I see 1- and also often 2-rowed radial rays. This is not usual for Acer which has often 3-4-rowed radial rays, but maybe a species in your area has such wood. What Acer species do you think it is?

I am also quite convinced that this "caudata" is another species. The long SBs is one reason. Bark of Fraxinus and Ulmus differ, but it is not very easy. A look on the inner surface of the bark gives usually an idea. You could make some comparison, purely macroscopic.

The characters, including conidia (which could belong to another species), appear to point to series Habrostictis. Therefore, a sequence would be very interesting.
Khomenko Igor, 08-01-2021 06:46
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
Thank you Zotto for all your advice,

There are at least 7 species of Acer reported from that area and don't know them well. I won't be able to narrow it down without seeing leaves. It may have to wait until spring.


#496 - not O.caudata
For me, the bark from that specimen looks identical to the bark with O.pilifera (#545 https://inaturalist.ca/observations/61244005) from a neighboring tree, but it is just me and I could be very wrong. I will need to get bark from Fraxinus to compare. I assume that O. pilifera could only be on Ulmus.
If you want to study this specimen I can mail it to you or to Guy Marson.


Best regards,
Igor

Hans-Otto Baral, 08-01-2021 10:33
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Orbilia cejpii
I find this speciesvery interesting, but I do not work anymore on Orbilia, my time is now reserved for non-orbiliaceous discos.

Anyway I am very curious about the relationship, I suggest you send a portion to Guy.

Is 2019 correct or was it 2020?

Zotto
Khomenko Igor, 08-01-2021 18:25
Khomenko Igor
Re : Orbilia cejpii
#496 - not O.caudata
I'm going to send it to Guy Marson, but I will wait until he receives my first package, in case he needs something else from me.
Yes, it was collected in November 2019 and I wasn't able to find it in 2020 and I looked hard three times during the fall.

I'm not limiting myself to Orbilia. I have at least 33 different species from Helotiales from 2020 that need identification. I just afraid to ask at once.


Igor