13-04-2024 11:44
Riet van Oosten
Hello, Found by Laurens van der Linde, April 2024
16-04-2024 17:43
Giovanni ANTOLA
Bonjour,Trouvé sous paille humide, autour d'un je
17-04-2024 10:44
Bernard CLESSE
Juste à côté du cône avec "Hyphodiscus ayelii"
16-04-2024 22:53
Bernard CLESSE
Bonsoir à toutes et tous,Pourriez-vous m'aider à
Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Nicolas VAN VOOREN,
02-10-2007 19:49
Voici une récolte tout à fait intéressante qui me semble correspondre à un taxon décrit ad interim par Bernard Declercq dans sa clé des Hymenoscyphus s.l. Hormis l'habitat, les autres caractères me semblent coller et surtout, phénomène le plus intéressant : la coloration des "noyaux" dans une solution idoée (Lugo ou Melzer). Je joins deux photos prises par Jean-Louis Cheype qui a eu, comme moi, la chance de récolter l'espèce lors de la session mycologique FMBDS/FAMM à Lamoura (Jura).A terre, sur de petits débris ligneux enfouis (aiguilles de sapin), plusieurs apothécies jaune ; Ø 2-3 mm
Asques cylindracés, avec crochet, octosporés, 115-130 × 7-9 µm, à pore apical IKI-. Paraphyses hyalines, cloisonnées, sans vacuole. Spores elliptico-fusiformes à fusiformes ± larges, 10-13 × 5-5,7 µm, hyalines, sans véritables guttules mais à contenu "granuleux", présentant dans le lugol deux tâches brunes distinctes. Excipulum ectal de textura subglobulosa/angularis, à cellules brun jaune.
On soil, on dead fallen needles of Abies buried, several yellow apothecia ; Ø 2-3 mm
Asci cylindric, with crozier, 8 sp., 115-130 × 7-9 µm, with apical ring IKI-. Paraphyses hyalin, septed, without VB. Spores elliptico-fusoïd to fusoïd ± enlarged, 10-13 × 5-5.7 µm, hyalin, without guttules but with granulous content, showing two brown spots in the lugol reagent. Ectal excipulum of textura subglobulosa/angularis, with brown yellow cells.
Si d'autres membres du forum ont déjà observé ce champignon et/ou ce phénomène de coloration, nous sommes, Jean-Louis et moi, intéressés par toute information. D'autre part, s'agit-il réellement d'une coloration des noyaux de la spore ?
Nicolas VAN VOOREN,
02-10-2007 19:49
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Et la micro
Christian Lechat,
02-10-2007 20:56
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
SUPERBE!
Hans-Otto Baral,
07-10-2007 21:27
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Hi Nicolas
first, the "noyaux" are in fact glycogen depots which are frequently found in fungi especially in immature asci and in mature spores. This is typical for Helotiales that there are two such areas in each spore, around which often small oil drops are grouped. In the centre of the spores taken by Jean-Louis there is the true nucleus and even the nucleolus more or less visible:
first, the "noyaux" are in fact glycogen depots which are frequently found in fungi especially in immature asci and in mature spores. This is typical for Helotiales that there are two such areas in each spore, around which often small oil drops are grouped. In the centre of the spores taken by Jean-Louis there is the true nucleus and even the nucleolus more or less visible:
Hans-Otto Baral,
07-10-2007 21:31
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
As for the species, I do not know Bernard´s species which is on Populus leaves. Jean-Louis´s specimen is Helotium cf. sulphuratum (Schum.) Phill., a species which I know from a few collections on needles of Abies and Picea at subalpine altitude. Typical are the inamyloid asci and the ciborioid spores with many small LBs grouped in each spore half. I attach details of my drawing of an Austrian collection.
Hans-Otto Baral,
07-10-2007 21:32
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Spores
Jean-Louis CHEYPE,
10-10-2007 10:24
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Hi Zotto,
Thank you very much for your answer.Yes, It seemed to me that colouring by the melzer did not detect the nucleus. Can you say how one can reveal the nucleus (Giemsa ?).
It seems that Helotium sulfuratum is described of Australia ?. Did one find in Europe? and can you forward me his description.
A+
Jean-Louis
Thank you very much for your answer.Yes, It seemed to me that colouring by the melzer did not detect the nucleus. Can you say how one can reveal the nucleus (Giemsa ?).
It seems that Helotium sulfuratum is described of Australia ?. Did one find in Europe? and can you forward me his description.
A+
Jean-Louis
Hans-Otto Baral,
10-10-2007 22:30
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Hi Jean-Louis!
the nucleus is visible without staining. Giemsa is surely lethal to the spores and is a rather complicated procedure which I do not manage. But nuclei in living spores can be seen inside larger living spores, including the nucleolus. If you wish to increase the contrast, you must apply vital staining. The simplest way is to use Lugol (not Melzer which is lethal). Lugol immediately enters the spores as we can see in Nicolas´ images. Usually the nucleus and nucleolus then get much more distinct. Also Cresyl blue works more or less well.
Helotium sulphuratum is only reported for Europe to my knowledge, and that very rarely. In Beiheft 6 Z. Mykol. (1985) I refer to this species without citing the name sulphuratum (p. 137). The only detailed description I know is by Le Gal (1954, BSMF LXX: 204). This is a collection from 1953, on Picea needles, from Sörenberg (Suisse), 1200 m altitude, leg. MG Malencon. The characters fit very well to our finds, only the spores are figured with rather large oil drops but this might be due to the in dead material (coalescence of the many small LBs).
The problem remains what sulphuratum in the original sense was.
Is your find also from rather high altitude? Could you please tell me the location and date?
Merci bien
Zotto
the nucleus is visible without staining. Giemsa is surely lethal to the spores and is a rather complicated procedure which I do not manage. But nuclei in living spores can be seen inside larger living spores, including the nucleolus. If you wish to increase the contrast, you must apply vital staining. The simplest way is to use Lugol (not Melzer which is lethal). Lugol immediately enters the spores as we can see in Nicolas´ images. Usually the nucleus and nucleolus then get much more distinct. Also Cresyl blue works more or less well.
Helotium sulphuratum is only reported for Europe to my knowledge, and that very rarely. In Beiheft 6 Z. Mykol. (1985) I refer to this species without citing the name sulphuratum (p. 137). The only detailed description I know is by Le Gal (1954, BSMF LXX: 204). This is a collection from 1953, on Picea needles, from Sörenberg (Suisse), 1200 m altitude, leg. MG Malencon. The characters fit very well to our finds, only the spores are figured with rather large oil drops but this might be due to the in dead material (coalescence of the many small LBs).
The problem remains what sulphuratum in the original sense was.
Is your find also from rather high altitude? Could you please tell me the location and date?
Merci bien
Zotto
Jean-Louis CHEYPE,
11-10-2007 10:38
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Hi Zotto,
I have just read the article of Gal and I think that H. sulfuratum corresponds rather well to our collections (except the drops in the ascospores).
I do not know the place of collect of Nicolas but it will be able to communicate it to you.
My collect : 20/9/07, au Bois des Arobiers - Commune de Lamoura (Jura - France) MEN 3328B, alt 1300 m.
A lot of thanks...
Jean-Louis o)
Bonjour Zotto,
Je viens de lire l'article de Le Gal et Je pense que cela correspond assez bien à notre récolte (sauf les gouttes dans les ascospores).
Je ne connais pas le lieu de récolte de Nicolas mais il pourra te la communiquer.
Ma récolte à été faite le 20/9/07, au Bois des Arobiers - Commune de Lamoura (Jura) MEN 3328B, alt 1300 m.
I have just read the article of Gal and I think that H. sulfuratum corresponds rather well to our collections (except the drops in the ascospores).
I do not know the place of collect of Nicolas but it will be able to communicate it to you.
My collect : 20/9/07, au Bois des Arobiers - Commune de Lamoura (Jura - France) MEN 3328B, alt 1300 m.
A lot of thanks...
Jean-Louis o)
Bonjour Zotto,
Je viens de lire l'article de Le Gal et Je pense que cela correspond assez bien à notre récolte (sauf les gouttes dans les ascospores).
Je ne connais pas le lieu de récolte de Nicolas mais il pourra te la communiquer.
Ma récolte à été faite le 20/9/07, au Bois des Arobiers - Commune de Lamoura (Jura) MEN 3328B, alt 1300 m.
Nicolas VAN VOOREN,
11-10-2007 16:49
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Hi everybody.
Thank you Zotto for your data. I agree with Jean-Louis, I think that our gatherings are the same as your collection HB5592E and the collection by N. Matocec under the name "Bisporella citrina var. piceina". I found some mentions of Helotium sulphuratum in Philipps (1887) and Seaver (1951), the description by Fries (1822) fits well macroscopically but I didn't find the orginal description by Schumacher (1803)...
Is this fungus considered as a Phaeohelotium or an Hymenoscyphus?
To complete the location given by Jean-Louis:
* Bois des Arobiers : Long. E 4.076 gr - Lat. N 51.91 gr
My collection:
* Longchaumois (Jura, France), En Fajoux, route forestière du bois de Ban, alt. 1150 m, Long. E 4.048gr - Lat. N 51.59 gr; leg. N. Vanvooren, 20/09/2007
Thank you Zotto for your data. I agree with Jean-Louis, I think that our gatherings are the same as your collection HB5592E and the collection by N. Matocec under the name "Bisporella citrina var. piceina". I found some mentions of Helotium sulphuratum in Philipps (1887) and Seaver (1951), the description by Fries (1822) fits well macroscopically but I didn't find the orginal description by Schumacher (1803)...
Is this fungus considered as a Phaeohelotium or an Hymenoscyphus?
To complete the location given by Jean-Louis:
* Bois des Arobiers : Long. E 4.076 gr - Lat. N 51.91 gr
My collection:
* Longchaumois (Jura, France), En Fajoux, route forestière du bois de Ban, alt. 1150 m, Long. E 4.048gr - Lat. N 51.59 gr; leg. N. Vanvooren, 20/09/2007
Nicolas VAN VOOREN,
11-10-2007 21:28
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Pour info, voici la diagnose de Peziza sulphurea extraite de :
Schumacher, H. C. F. 1803. Enumeratio plantarum in partibus Saellandiae septentrionalis et orientalis. Vol. 2., p. 428-429.
Schumacher, H. C. F. 1803. Enumeratio plantarum in partibus Saellandiae septentrionalis et orientalis. Vol. 2., p. 428-429.
Guy Garcia,
11-10-2007 22:19
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Sur le DVD de Zotto, il y a le scan direct (Hymenoscyphus ´parasazavae´, Garcia 02092301.JPG) d'une récolte que j'ai effectuée en compagnie de Michel Hairaud et qui, aprés discussion avec Zotto, pourrait correspondre à Helotium sulphuratum sensu Le Gal.
Amitiés, Guy
Amitiés, Guy
Hans-Otto Baral,
11-10-2007 23:01
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
If Schumacher collected in Sjaelland (Denmark) then H. sulphuratum in its original sense did not grow high-montaneous nor boreal but rather colline. But why is it spelled sulphurea and not sulphurata in Schumacher? A possibility exists that H. sulphuratum was Hymenoscyphus monticola or epiphyllus. At least the latter may occur on conifer needles.
The generic limits are still rather unclear. Perhaps Cudoniella could be separated from Hymenoscyphus, and most of what is placed in Phaeohelotium including Helotium sulphuratum would belong in Cudoniella, according to molecular results being so far published only as a poster by J. Collado, R. Galán and others (see DVD, CA Phylogenetic trees).
H. parasazavae nom. prov. is a nice, not at all rare species easily differentiated from the above by (1) absence of croziers, (2) presence of an amyloid ring, and (3) most guttules in the spores being VBs which disappear in KOH. It also occurs only at montaneous altitude restricted to conifers, and is actually a further candidate to be compared with the presumably inexistent type collection of H. sulphuratum. H. sulphuratum s. Le Gal is actually somewhat ambiguous in this respect, but I feel the negative iodine reaction and the big drops given by Le Gal shuld exclude parasazavae. In any case, Guy´s find is clearly different from Jean-Louis´ and Nicolas´ find, and no certain published names are available for either of the two taxa.
Amitiés
Zotto
The generic limits are still rather unclear. Perhaps Cudoniella could be separated from Hymenoscyphus, and most of what is placed in Phaeohelotium including Helotium sulphuratum would belong in Cudoniella, according to molecular results being so far published only as a poster by J. Collado, R. Galán and others (see DVD, CA Phylogenetic trees).
H. parasazavae nom. prov. is a nice, not at all rare species easily differentiated from the above by (1) absence of croziers, (2) presence of an amyloid ring, and (3) most guttules in the spores being VBs which disappear in KOH. It also occurs only at montaneous altitude restricted to conifers, and is actually a further candidate to be compared with the presumably inexistent type collection of H. sulphuratum. H. sulphuratum s. Le Gal is actually somewhat ambiguous in this respect, but I feel the negative iodine reaction and the big drops given by Le Gal shuld exclude parasazavae. In any case, Guy´s find is clearly different from Jean-Louis´ and Nicolas´ find, and no certain published names are available for either of the two taxa.
Amitiés
Zotto
Nicolas VAN VOOREN,
12-10-2007 10:13
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Juste une remarque concernant le nom « Peziza sulphurea ». Le nom donné par Schumacher (1803) est illégitime car Persoon (1797) avait déjà publié une espèce sous ce nom ainsi que Batsch (1786). Le nom Peziza sulphurata proposé par Fries (1822) doit donc être considéré comme un nom nouveau (art. 7.3 du Code) dont le type est celui de P. sulphurea Schum.
La citation dans le genre Helotium est donc : Helotium sulphuratum (Fr. : Fr.) W. Philipps (1887) ; basionyme Peziza sulphurata Schum. -> Fr. (1822). Le genre Helotium étant un nom rejeté (App. V du Code), le taxon reste disponible pour un transfert dans un genre adapté.
La citation dans le genre Helotium est donc : Helotium sulphuratum (Fr. : Fr.) W. Philipps (1887) ; basionyme Peziza sulphurata Schum. -> Fr. (1822). Le genre Helotium étant un nom rejeté (App. V du Code), le taxon reste disponible pour un transfert dans un genre adapté.
Hans-Otto Baral,
12-10-2007 23:18
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
That´s right, Nicolas, and I see that Hengstmengel (1985: 490, Persoonia 12) placed Peziza sulphurata Fr. (= Peziza sulphurea Schumach.) in synonymy with Hymenoscyphus epiphyllus var. acarius (P. Karst.) Hengstm.! Hengstmengel´s paper is only a list of new combinations, and he seems never to have made his observations public. Perhaps we should ask him about his results about the identity of the type of Peziza epiphylla var. acaria (on Pinus needles, Mustiala). However, I don´t think that our fungus is var. acarius because Karsten (Mon. Pez. fenn. 143, 1869) says the spores are 14-20 x 3-4 µm.
Guy Garcia,
12-10-2007 23:34
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Nicolas,
Bien que Peziza sulphurea Schumacher soit un homonyme postérieur, le fait que ce soit un nom sanctionné lui donne alors priorité et légitimité sur ses homonynes et je ne vois pas pourquoi il faudrait considérer que Fries à créer un nomen novum !
Guy
Je viens de relire Fries (1822) et je vois (p. 104) qu'il sanctionne aussi Peziza sulphurea Persoon et qu'il modifie volontairement (p. 72) l'épithète sulphurea Schum. en sulphurata et qu'il attribue cette nouvelle épithète à Schum. dans l'index (p. 612). Donc je suis d'accord avec toi.
Guy
Bien que Peziza sulphurea Schumacher soit un homonyme postérieur, le fait que ce soit un nom sanctionné lui donne alors priorité et légitimité sur ses homonynes et je ne vois pas pourquoi il faudrait considérer que Fries à créer un nomen novum !
Guy
Je viens de relire Fries (1822) et je vois (p. 104) qu'il sanctionne aussi Peziza sulphurea Persoon et qu'il modifie volontairement (p. 72) l'épithète sulphurea Schum. en sulphurata et qu'il attribue cette nouvelle épithète à Schum. dans l'index (p. 612). Donc je suis d'accord avec toi.
Guy
Nicolas VAN VOOREN,
13-10-2007 11:48
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Je serai intéressé par la description de Karsten de Peziza epiphylla var. acaria. Si quelqu'un peut m'adresser un scan, merci.
Guy Garcia,
15-10-2007 21:10
Re:Phaeohelotium binucleatum
Nicolas,
Ne sachant pas si tu as reçu le document demandé de Karsten, le voici quand même, le poids du fichier n'étant pas trop lourd.
Bonne lecture
Amitiés, Guy
Ne sachant pas si tu as reçu le document demandé de Karsten, le voici quand même, le poids du fichier n'étant pas trop lourd.
Bonne lecture
Amitiés, Guy
3236.pdf